It’s time for another installment of my conversations with my pal Dave Sharp. This time, we talk about the dos and donts of websites for architects and then quickly move on to a debate about the state of the industry and an analogy to Toyotas and Ferraris.
Check it out here.
Transcript:
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
Hello everyone, my name is Arnaud. I'm from Revelateur Studio and we have Dave Sharp of Office D. SHARP with us today. We occasionally catch up to talk about all things marketing and communications in the realm of architecture. Tonight we're going to talk about websites. Dave, is there anything you want to add to that?
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
No, that's a good intro, Arno. Thank you. Talking about websites, man, you picked websites as the topic for today. What was your thinking? Why websites for architects? Could something we talk about a lot, but why were you curious to discuss this one?
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
Because it's been years that I've spent an unhealthy amount of time looking at architect's websites and-
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Obsessing over websites.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
... I still go crazy to see how bad some of them are. And I guess the way you could summarize it is that the ratio of bad websites to good websites is grossly lopsided. There's way more bad ones than good ones. So, when I see a good one, I usually use it as a case study of sorts to tell people what they should aspire to do. Not necessarily copy, but just to get the best practices from it. But so many websites are bad, and I don't necessarily mean aesthetically, although that also happens. Sometimes you have very sleek websites, but then the copy and the messaging is just completely off.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Yep, yep, totally.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
You and I had a list of subtopics we wanted to cover, so-
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Basics, let's start with some basics.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
Basics of an architecture website.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Good place to start.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
You were going to start, what do you it should be and how?
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Okay, so this one, I'm going to give a really annoying answer. I used to be so firm about what this should be, the basics of what it should try and accomplish in terms of generating leads, or inquiries, or what have you, what it would need to do that and what it wouldn't need. But as I've grown over time as a marketing person, I think about website basics being, depends on your strategy, because I meet very different types of firms and some firms are really focused on activation and getting inquiries and trying to convert more of their visitors into leads and project opportunities, which is great. That's definitely an important job.
But then there's other firms that I meet and speak to me and they say, "Well, we're all good on that front. That's not really our issue. We are just trying to really change the type of client that we have or the way that we are seen as a brand, as a practice." And for them their website has very, very different basics that it needs to achieve that job. I've muddied the waters a little bit with that spiel.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
I think that's the place to start, because you shouldn't even begin to designed or design for you before exactly what you wanted to accomplish.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
What your objective is. It sounds very marketing person to say that, but it's very true. I think sometimes I see some practices or firms applying, they're applying a strategy or some tactics for the wrong objective. They're not carefully thinking about what they're actually trying to achieve and they see what another firm is doing and they'll do the same thing, but they don't realize that that other firm is trying to achieve something completely different. And it might not have anything to do with getting new business, believe it or not, or whatever. It might be a totally different, coming from a totally different place.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
It's like that conversation that our dear friend Nikita had started on LinkedIn a while back about the controversial big website, because they used to have a very cartoonish, childish, playful website. And that website always annoyed me because it was really a pain in the arse to navigate and find information about projects. But they said, "Oh, that website was" ... Someone said that website was designed to attract employees and intern.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Yeah, 100%.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
And so if you look it at from that perspective, yeah, it makes sense. I still think it was a terrible website, but maybe I'm a little more nuanced. I think your point spot on on that, but I think there's something ... If we look at a website in terms of what is the lowest or minimal viable products-
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Exactly.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
... kind of goal you should have. I think for architects there are a few things that generally, again, may not apply to a 100% of people, but I think for most it would, you want it to be crystal clear, the website, to make it crystal clear what you do and who you do it for. So, your messaging can be very simple and very brief, but it has to be crystal clear. If you're going to show your work, it should be shown in a way that's elegant, easy to navigate, and easy to comprehend. And anything beyond that I think is gravy. But if at the very minimum you have maybe even very simple looking but elegant and well-designed website, which you can accomplish with services like Squarespace, by the way.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Yep, definitely.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
You definitely have a custom website done for you. It's always better, but it's also very expensive. Squarespace is 30 bucks a month or 40 bucks a month.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Yep, definitely.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
I think that as far as the basics are concerned, that's how I'd look at it is, if nothing else make it a nice interactive business card or calling card that people will at the very least not be repulsed by.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Yeah, definitely.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
And at best attracted to.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
You have an online presence at that point. I definitely do get approached by small practices that have been operating for two or three years and they don't actually have a website yet, and that's not great at all. Because they're stuck trying to make decisions about, "What do I do with the brand name, or the logo? Or should I or shouldn't I engage a graphic designer to do this professionally? Should I do this myself?" I think-
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
They don't have a website, you mean not at all?
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Not at all.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
Not even a placeholder?
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Not even a placeholder. No placeholder. They've bought a domain name and that to me is, that doesn't matter what your objective is, that's not going to work. I think if we're talking about practices at a very, very early stage, you wouldn't think that we're speaking to that big of an audience saying, "Get a simple Squarespace website." But there are actually a lot of them out there. I get emails from them all the time. That's definitely the first stage. I think just more broadly a thing that's applicable to a bunch of different practices is that the basics of a website can also mean not very many projects as well. And there are some really, really beautiful websites that are just one project, or three projects, or two projects, and that's fine. And it comes across really beautifully. One of-
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
I have a client who's a more established firm, not huge, but they're up there and they do exquisite work. And I know for a fact that they design dozens, if not hundreds of projects, but their website has, I'm pretty sure it's less than a dozen, maybe even less than 10, but only the best. And the pictures for each one of them are top notch.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Yeah, that's the way to do it. That's definitely the way to do it.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
I want to put on my contrarian hat for a second. Do you think it's still possible to be a successful architecture firm without any website at all? And I'm not talking about presence elsewhere online, I'm saying just no website.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
It might be possible, but the funny thing is, there's not a whole bunch of examples I can even think of where there's a successful architecture firm that doesn't have a website. Just the other day I was looking at a successful-ish architecture firm that popped up that didn't have an Instagram. And that caught me as weird because these days that's very rare that you'll find a reasonably established architecture practice that doesn't have an Instagram. And I remember thinking, for how well known this practice is, they're not that well known, which is a weird thing to say. But for how established they are maybe is a better way to put it, they're surprisingly under the radar. And it's funny what an impact I feel like not having that presence is.
Now, I think not having a website is just going to, it's going to be a hundred times worse in terms of lack of visibility, not turning up when people look for, you just can't be having that, right? How do you not turn up on Google when people put your name in by not having a website? It's just so bad for business, I can't see anybody doing it, hey? What do you reckon?
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
I would tend to agree with you, I think. Like I mentioned before, the very least, buy domain name and have a one-page website with your name and your contact info. There's actually, it's not an architecture firm, but I think it's a graphic design and communications firm out of New Zealand called Alt Group. You might know them.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
No, I don't.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
And it's altgroup.net and their homepage, they only have one homepage and it's all white and there's a short sentence in the middle of it that says, "This page intentionally left blank."
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Yeah, exactly. That comes back to the initial thing of brand and what you want to do as a brand. When you're at that stage of your marketing journey where your priorities are more around quality of client, brand perception, employee quality, employee, potential employee interest in the practice, whatever trying to brand equity you're trying to build, you could have a very dysfunctional website be part of that story. And firms that aren't at that stage will look at you and think you've lost your mind and that you've lost it. But there's actually a lot of value in occasionally making moves like that if they're from a really good brand perspective. So, a website that is blank like that, and that might be unintentional. Sometimes brands do things that are unintentionally important to their brand, even though it's just sloppiness.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
No, and this is intentional.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Like Berkshire Hathaway.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
This is intentional from other people who know them who say they're the busiest graphic design firm in the world. They don't need a website. So that's kind of important.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Exactly. Which is part of their brand image. It has to be done carefully and done by somebody who's professional at executing that, because if you try to implement that strategy yourself, you definitely are on that fine line between pretentiousness and cool brandness. There's a very, very careful line to tread there and you don't want to necessarily tip too far over the other side. But yeah, that sort of move makes sense. I mean, in the last year I rebranded, I changed my website and I went much more towards trying to define what the brand is about and try and position myself higher in the industry to work with better known or more respected practices was my goal or direction I wanted to go. Bigger practices, more architecturally practices.
And part of that was the trade off that came with that was going, "We're not going to have as much information on the page. We're not going to describe our services in as much detail. We're not going to do this whole variety of different things that were really positive towards getting more business." And I see people all the time criticizing websites for not having enough information or whatever. I used to do that myself, but I've realized that definitely creates a shift in terms of how the brand's seen. Sometimes it can be for a good reason, even though as a byproduct you might not get as many inquiries, or you might not get as many people who understand your service as well as they did before. But those things aren't always universally positive. Sometimes those can be bad things, believe it or not.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
You can get a lot of tire kickers and then waste time vetting them, versus like you said, if you move up market and you get fewer inquiries, but your average sale is like sometimes what you used to do then makes sense.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
It's interesting. I mean, look, I honestly think I probably get more tire kickers because what I'm not putting out as much information about how my services are structured. I'm keeping it way more, part of the brand strategy is keeping it a lot more broad and ambiguous, which is really the opposite of what my approach used to be. It was incredibly structured, productized, detailed, perfectly described. It was really, really broken down. So, nobody that was coming to me was like, "What do you do and how do you do it?" They knew, because it was written in complete detail on my website.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
Is a year enough time for you to gauge the effectiveness of your rebrand?
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
The effectiveness happened straight away, really it did. Just straight away, different type of client was coming to me that wouldn't have come to me before. It put me in a little bit of a different league in terms of that perception. I also just feel like, this is a website thing, but having the tools you need to do business and making those yourself or having somebody prepare those for you, things like fee proposal templates and presentation templates and all these capability statement templates. Getting those professionally done is, in terms of sales is a really game changing upgrade in terms of having all of that stuff done at a really high level. It just makes you look, it presents so much better to a sophisticated client, to a high value client that anybody would want to work with them.
But yeah, so I think that's what I think of when it comes to the website stuff in terms of depending on what stage you're at and how those priorities change you might be doing things. Not all marketing is just about trying to get somebody to contact you, so sometimes it's doing things. And when we're talking about project selection, for example, that is also a bit of a mindset shift to narrow down on your project selection, because it does sometimes mean leaving out the possibility that that project number 25, 30, project number 55, that there's something in that is different or unique that would appeal to some project type, that can be quite hard to let that go.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
A very simple tactic to overcome that fear if that's ever ... Because my website is grossly out of date, it's so much out of date that I'm not going to say how long it's been since I updated it. But I've been going through my entire catalog of pictures and reorganizing everything, and I'm posting not every project, but every project that I can like or can stand behind from a professional perspective, I'm posting it on Behance. That will be a lower level, "everything goes" portfolio that's not necessarily geared towards clients, but if clients wants to see a specific project that I can put them there.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
That's fair.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
But when I do get around to revamping my website, then the website will only have the best of the best and that might end up being a couple dozen projects out of 250 or something. I think the curation is really a big part of the process. Let's move to the dos and don'ts of websites and what people should consider doing and absolutely avoid. I think I only have really one piece of advice in that area is, don't do something just because you see one of your competitors do it and you think it looks cool, or you like it. Anything that goes on one's website should really be a reflection of the overall brand strategy as you mentioned before, and it should have a purpose. If your competitor does something that makes sense to them and you find it looks cool but does nothing for you, then that's the reason why you shouldn't do it basically. What's your take on dos and don'ts? What do you have for us?
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
I think what you said earlier about a simple message is a really good one to talk about in terms of a do, because I think it's an area that a lot of architects are really frustrated with is literally it's probably one of the most common briefs I get in terms of people contacting me. They go, "I really need help clarifying my message, simplifying my message." That's always there. Just really just picking a few key things to narrow down on. You don't have to say 15 different reasons that you're a good architect or that your work's good or the 12 ways that your spaces are nice. Just pick two or three things. Keep it really simple in terms of your messaging.
And you just got to prioritize that. I think prioritize a couple things. Be afraid to not say some stuff, sorry, don't be afraid to not say some stuff. You don't have to talk about every other way that your stuff's good. I think it's just certain, just confidence and just narrow down on a couple of things. And usually you'll be able to decide what they are if you just make a list and then start to prioritize what would the two or three most important important things on this list be. So, I think that's a do.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
Yeah, and to add to that, I find that a lot of architects really have a hard time putting themselves in their client's shoes and thinking of their work in terms of, "What benefit does it bring to my client? What does the work I do, do for my client?" Because 90% of architecture firms, even the best ones talk about themselves. "We are X, we do this, we won those awards, we are awesome, blah, blah." No one gives a shit about that. What people want to know-
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
I do.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
And that's psychology, it's not-
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you say. Yep, totally.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
... is, what are you going to do for them? Which of their problems that keep them up at night are you going to help them solve? And once you hit that ... Many architects complain about not being able to charge enough. That's because they don't do what I just said. The ones who do, and I have several clients who actually have gone through that transformation and have started talking to their clients in different ways. They charge whatever fee they want, because they're positioned as the expert and people will pay for their expertise. The problem with most architects is they're seen as a commodity because they all sound the same. So, the messaging should really be about, and that's the hardest part, I'll be honest, that's really hard to do, and that's why it's good to hire people who know how to write those things. Like good copyright-ish-
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Definitely. Definitely.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
... to hammer it out for you. You may have a hunch as to what it is, but a good sales, even a sales copywriter, I know it's sacrilege for me to say that, because people hate sales copy, but guess what? Sales copy works. It's unappealing in many ways, but it works. It uses psychology to get people to do what you would like them to do.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, I'd say it depends on whether you're in that stage or not, because I think if you're going like, "I'm trying to get more inquiries, I'm just trying to increase the volume." Which is fine, by the way. Nothing wrong with that. That's like, that's where you're going to be at probably for the first several years. Or it's going to depend on what type of architect you are, what you'd aspire to be, all that sort of stuff. But getting more persuasive copy, more persuasive messaging, getting professional help with that I think is a really, really good idea.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
When I say sales copy, at a entry level it can be just basic sales copy, just to get people to take the action they want. But once you elevate your brand, you still want to think in those terms. And that's where I think some of the most persuasive people I've seen are very experienced advertising copywriters. So, you can do basic sales copy, like white paper type of stuff that's very salesy, effective but not very appealing. Or you can elevate your copy and work with someone who knows how to sell, but also knows how to make it sound interesting.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Yeah, exactly. I think so, definitely. It's also, you have to decide whether you want to talk about the architecture service. You're talking about the client shoes and relating to the client, what you're going to do for the client. You have to make a conscious choice about whether your messaging strategy is going to revolve around architect and client, the service side of it, the business, service side of the business, or your messaging should revolve more around the space. What are you actually selling? Because some clients come to certain architects because of the buildings and others come because of the architecture firm. And there's some firms that are both, but typically I find that practices will fall into one category or the other. There are really amazing architects that do incredible buildings that are award-winning that are sick, that photograph well that you see on the cover of Vogue Magazine or Architectural Digest.
They can offer a very, very mediocre service. It doesn't matter, because what they're delivering is pretty amazing and people are coming for that. If their copy was like, "We're going to work with you at every step of the journey and collaborate and listen." Everyone would be like, "Well, I don't really give a shit about that. I just want the thing that's on Architectural Digest cover."
There's a category of that customer and there's the category of that architect. But there's the other category, which is like the architect that doesn't do that work, they just do much more normal work. And the customer that's coming to them is not so much into that. That's not what they're coming for. They're not coming for the thing on the front of the magazine. They're coming for a nice house and a good service. And that architect, that's what their strength is, that's what they're really good at. They have to acknowledge they're probably just okay at the portfolio side, but they're really, really good at running a good business and being a good architect and a good person to work with, and then that's what they copy and stuff should accentuate, so-
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
I think you're right-
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
I think there's place for both, I think you need both.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
But I think there's more of the latter than the former, the star-studded level people who can actually run a business purely based on aesthetics. I think-
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Yeah, yeah. They're a small percentage. No, that's a great, and that's so true and that's important. But I think there's this two sides I've noticed. And they tend to just throw, they take massive shits on each other. They hate each other.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
They do.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
And I think it's cool to just go, there is two sides, and not every architect is a magazine cover architect, but that's okay. But thank God we have magazine cover architects. We love that. That's okay. They can do their thing. And magazine cover architects also shouldn't look down their nose at architects that have more sales or persuasion-driven coffee or are just trying to talk about how they're going to make it a smooth journey to work with a client on their first house and it's accessible. That's great. And I think you need both, but I think it's important for architects to think about which category they should probably position. And this is positioning, like marketing. We talk about positioning, looking at the whole landscape of the market and deciding, "Where should we plunk our business to be in the sweet spot? We're putting it in the right place." And so I think it's just positioning your practice realistically based on where you sit in terms of project versus service. So look, does that make sense?
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
Yeah, it does. I personally have a bit of an issue with the whole cover, magazine cover architects thing, because that's what you and I both went to architecture school and that's what we're fed in school. We all think we can become that. And the reality is, most people won't.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Well, it's something we think about. Yeah, no, sorry, go for it.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
But I also think that the sexy architecture takes way too much precedence over competent architecture that does what it's supposed to without necessarily going overboard on the aesthetic or image front. Which I think, as I get older, I find that way more important, because I'd rather see a decent, but average looking school that does what it's supposed to do really well. It functions really well, it helps students perform better, it helps the community life, whatever the case may be, than a very sexy school designed by say Zaha Hadid or her office, since she's no longer around. But that looks super sexy and is on all the magazine covers but starts falling apart five years in.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Maybe, maybe.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
And so there's also that to consider. If you can do both, if you're like a Louis Kahn or Mies van der Rohe and you have the ability to do both, more power to you. Because those guys were really exceptional architects on pretty much any level. But most architects aren't. I think it's a realistic conversation to be had about one's aspirations versus the reality and you're-
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Definitely.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
... paid to, because you can be a very competent and highly successful architect and never get published once.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Totally, totally.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
And there's nothing wrong with that. And I mean, most architecture is that way, to be honest. But we just think more about the sexy architecture because it's more in the culture and the psyche.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Definitely, definitely.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
But that's almost a conversation for another time.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Man, but honestly, I think that's the most important conversation. I think that's the conversation the industry needs to have when they talk about marketing. Because I speak at these events or sit on these panels and I just see the two sides talking at each other. And I don't think they realize they're talking about two industries within an industry. The publications, the architect, architect is in a completely different category to the other architect that is providing the architecture service but is not producing that cultural work. I guess, I think there's a hard way to put it.
I remember when I was working at a practice in Japan during my year between before my master's, and they were telling me that in Japan, I might have got this wrong, but they were telling me that there's, in their industry there's two categories of architect. There's a building architect and then an art architect. And there's two, and they're clearly defined. A practice will know whether it's in the art category or the building category, or construction category, or whatever you want to call it. And I think we have something like this in Australia. We have architects and building designers. But there was this idea that within architecture there's these camps that are clearly defined. But I think we get our wires crossed about different strategic things and tactics and what should we do and what shouldn't we do and what's the problem with architects versus, all these things. But I think there's room for both of these groups. But I think you're right, man, it's unrealistic to think that every practice will become or will want to become that practice that's on the magazine cover.
I think the problem that you pointed out is really true though, which is that there are definitely some trade ... There's some challenges if you're not that magazine cover architect. Because the industry, the media, the way that the public consumes architecture, which is primarily through images, that's all very driven towards and benefits that very portfolio-oriented architect. And frankly, that's why there's so many of them and they're so successful. The practices that I tend to interview on my podcast, I'm very biased towards those practices that are winning awards and in magazines. That just tends to be who I gravitate to. And part of the reason for that is that those are the people that the rest of the industry will want to listen to. They're influential, and that's the case. I mean, there are good local architecture practices that are doing good work, but they don't have very much profile. Their work's not published all over the place. Nobody in the industry's heard of them, but that's not a problem. They're running a good business, they're running a thriving little business.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
The same way a regular person wants to know everything about the superstar model and plain looking people are not that interesting. I mean, it's a bit crude to say it that way, but that's the reality of life.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Is it any different in fashion, music, art? Any creative industry is going to have people that are celebrities within that industry. And some clients are going to show a certain amount of, I don't know what the word for this is, but connoisseurship maybe, I think is the technical term. And they are going to be the art collector, or the watch collector, or the music listener who as a consumer knows all the people. And they know who the cool people are and they know who the people are doing the most cutting edge shit. And that's a category of customer that that part of the industry thrives on and speaks to. And when they have their marketing brief, it's like, "I want the client who is design savvy, who knows about architecture, who comes to us because of the quality of the work that we do. They've chosen us out specifically."
If you're saying any of those things in your marketing brief, it's because you are trying to attract that architecture connoisseur client. But the thing is, you have to be on the magazines to attract that client, because that's how they're influenced. If those are your goals, if that's who you want, you're going to have to step it up in that direction. But then again, just the other day I was giving a talk at this event thing in South Australia and somebody was going, "Our clients don't read magazines. They don't care about what other architects are doing. They don't give a shit about architecture awards." And that was a bit of a rebuttal to what I had spoken about, because I spoke about magazines and awards and all that sort of stuff. And you know what? Fair enough, their clients don't care about that. That's not a big deal. That's fine.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
This is my perfect cue to throw in an automotive analogy, because I love those.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Yeah, please. It should be a motorbike analogy for you, right, man.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
Well, I like both. I like both. But the point is, you can either buy a Toyota or a Ferrari. The Toyota, nobody will notice you, but it will do what it's supposed to do, will work forever. And if you take good care of it'll take good care of you. The Ferrari, everybody will stop you at the gas station. They'll come take selfies with you, but you'll have to pay $15,000 every time you want to do an oil change. And every time you want to-
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Totally-
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
... change your brakes it's going to be a $50,000 job. But you'll get the attention you're looking for. I think that's the perfect analogy, because that's really what, let's call it plain architecture versus magazine architecture, the dichotomy is, it's like you have to as a client and as a practice as well, you have to decide whether you want to be Toyota or Ferrari. And once you're clear on which you are, then you can focus on those clients that you-
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
A 100%. You've got to be clear on it, man. They've got to be realistic and you've got to even and decide, "Oh, maybe I want to be Ferrari. Who says they want to be Toyota?" That's always used as the analogy to the marketing people to get people thinking about making their brand better seen, right? It's like, "Do you want to be the Toyota or do you want to be the Mercedes, or whatever?" And everyone's meant to go, "Oh, I want to be the Mercedes." But it's a problem if you can't build the Ferrari car. If all you can build is the Toyota, if that's what your business does and produces. You're not going to get very far trying to have a Ferrari mindset when you're got a Toyota chassis. You know what I mean?
I think you have to actually have a realistic view and get some, I think that's where some outside feedback is valuable. That's what I'm, as a marketing consultant, I think also we have to put ourselves into categories. When I talked about my rebrand and business shift, it was about me deciding which category I wanted to move into and be in and be comfortable in. And I wanted to go into more of that, I don't want to say the Ferrari category, but screw it. The Ferrari ca category is where I wanted to be because I saw that's where I wanted to work in that area of the world.
Because at heart, I'm an architecture guy. I went to architecture school, I love fucking great architecture, and that's what I wanted to, I want to gravitate in that world. That's where I want my career to go. But I still love the marketing world for the Toyota, for the 90% of practices that are just doing good work, are working in their area, in their city, word of mouth. They're getting their name out there, they're doing business and they're doing great.
But I think there's a lot of marketing that works for them that you maybe don't even necessarily need a big time architecture marketing specialist to help you with, because really you're just trying to get inquiries. You're trying to keep your digital presence up. I think in some ways it's a little bit more straightforward. But I don't know, there's straightforward things to either side. Also, just putting your stuff, sending your stuff out to magazines is pretty straightforward in its own way. So look, there's like, there's elements to both of it. But man, I think that was a great place to go with this conversation, because I think it's at the core of the problem that perhaps just need to think about.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
Like you said before, that's the conversation the architecture industry needs to have. Not base their perception of themselves and others based on false premises, but really look at what the reality of their practice is and have those hard conversations with the people who help that market themselves, because that's really-
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And also, just also just stop criticizing each other. The two different sides. I feel like there's that Ferrari architect, there's a lot of people that on LinkedIn and stuff, whenever I post about this stuff or have a podcast about it that are like, "Well, isn't it something wrong with our society, or something wrong with architecture that there is this kind of architecture?" And that is probably a conversation for another day, but also, it's just self-evident that there is a lot of demand for that category of work, who we see that in the prominence of so many great architecture firms. So, it exists. It's a real thing. And I think it's just, deciding where you sit with it, I think is important. But yeah, man-
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
The nature of the business is such that architectural services are expensive, and so that tends to make them only accessible to people with deep pockets, or institutions with deep pockets. And there's that tension between the idealism of architecture when you're in school and you think you can design buildings for everyone. But the reality is, most people can't afford an architect. And that's why we have large-scale developers who built tract housing and replicate the same house a 1,000 times to keep their costs down and be able to pass it on. And yeah, those are not architects' houses. Are they bad? I don't know, I've never lived in one. Maybe not that great, but maybe not that horrible either.
But I think that the problem is, I don't know if there's a way to square the circle, if that's even a thing you can say. That might be a Frenchism. Between the desire of architects to do all kinds of work, including for people that may not have the means for it. And the reality of the business is that you're going to have to work for people with deep pockets one way or another, whether it's large projects for big companies or institutions, or wealthy clients who can afford their dream home. I don't know if that's a problem you can ever solve, but it's an interesting debate, to be sure.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Man, I have seen, okay, so on the one hand, I totally agree. I think that there's a lot of architects, man. We're a very granular industry. Australia, I don't know, I think there's 12,000 architecture firms, or something along that line. It's crazy. We're a small country. We have a lot of architecture firms. There should be enough architects at both the high end, the middle end, the affordable end at any given time to be able to cater to anybody who wants an architect. There is not an architect shortage. There's a shortage of everything else. There is not an architect shortage. So, anybody that wants to should be able to work with one. There is obviously a economy of scale thing with certain budgets and so forth, but there is lots of good studios that are trying to come up with ways to do just things with hourly rates or fixed fees.
There are studios that are structuring ways to make it possible that people with very ... Budgets that would have previously been impossible to work with an architect, they are finding ways to do it. So, that that's a really, really good thing to see. But I think when I say there's no shortage, I also, on the same time I see a lot of architects and ones that I work with that are trying to launch new ways to make architecture more accessible into the public. And those projects are failing. And some succeed, but a lot of them fail, because unfortunately the demand is not there. Not for them in particular, but it just seems like actually there isn't as much demand for architecture as architects think there is. And we just take it for granted that there's all these people that want to work with architects, but there's just too many barriers to entry.
But I actually think it's the opposite problem. There's a lot of actually great architects that would love to offer their services more broadly to the public, and the public don't want it. I'm like, "How do we actually solve that problem, or work on that?" And I think that is a marketing challenge, but something that's come up over time is this idea of, how does architecture, the category market as an industry? We're not like dog food. We don't have two big companies, or we do get together as an industry, but we don't market as an industry or advertise as an industry. We don't do any market research or any really great market research in the industry, at least in Australia. It's been a long time since any of our peak bodies have commissioned any half decent market research or run any good ad campaigns in my opinion.
I think that there's a lot of room for improvement there. I feel like maybe that's the way to get more design out there is to actually try and get the public more into it. And I think anybody that's doing anything that's about trying to get the public educated or excited or involved in architecture is a really good thing. So, I think more of that. It's part of the-
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
And I think the part of the problem is, in my opinion, twofold, is one, there's been a lack of innovation in architecture, because we've been building the same way for let's say a century-
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
What you're saying, yep.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
And I think that lack of innovation is not for lack of architects trying, but I think it's predominantly regulatory in nature. Regulations make it nearly impossible to innovate for a myriad of reasons. And I think that's one of the big problems of architecture. And it also leads to the housing crisis that we're all experiencing. I don't know in Australia, but in Canada it's 90% of it is regulatory.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Oh, okay. Yeah, I mean-
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
If the government loosened the rules just a bit we would be able to build a lot more and a lot faster.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Yeah, there's that side to it, for sure. I mean, look, but you could also say maybe it's good to see some architects are getting out there really in terms of policy and advocacy and dealing with government. I have no idea how you deal with government and get regulation changed and stuff like that. But there's some really smart architects that know how all of that stuff works, and they're out there having meetings with politicians and doing all this important stuff. And I think that that's incredibly impressive. Also, just in terms of innovation, I mean, I open up Twitter or Instagram every day. I see a photo that's absolutely viral of an architectural space generated by AI or something like that. Or these people that are building these AI architecture and interior services just gaining 10,000 followers a day because it's becoming absolutely this phenomenon. And not a single one of them are architects.
There's this also interesting sort of thing of there are these ... Where is the public interested in design? Where is their attention going? And it's like our architects, are they getting involved in that? I don't always feel like you just need to jump on whatever the latest trend is at all. But it's interesting because whenever there's a sign that, "Hey, people are really interested in architecture." That always catches my attention because I never expect it. I'm used to people not being interested in architecture. So, whenever it's going viral on Twitter, I'm like, "Oh, shit, people are, there's lots of people and young people and this is amazing." Or a rapper will start tweeting about how much they want to learn about Frank Lloyd Wright or something, and I'm like, "Oh my God. Actually, architecture and culture, I love to see it." But so whenever we see signs of that, it's really positive. But I feel like that's also important piece of the puzzle.
But I also, maybe talking earlier about people being really divided on things or these two sides in the industry, I think these are areas where both sides can see the benefit of there being improvement, whether it's like regulation, whether it's technology, whether it's like culture promoting the industry. I think that's something that everyone can get around. So, I'm also happy that we talked about that, because I think those are also those conversations that architects need to keep having, because it's not just them taking shots at each other about whether or not people should have $5 million houses or not, and whether architecture should be involved in that, so I really like to see it. It's really good.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
Yeah, I think it comes down to what can you learn from the other side? Because there's something to learn. But I think that this architects shitting on each other is also a reflection of the scarcity mindset that you see a lot in the industry. As opposed to a growth mindset where you can easily picture that there's room for everyone, or for most people.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Definitely.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
And I mean, we're getting a bit sidetracked into a whole different debate here, but I think those are all fascinating things to talk about. We only touched about half of the points we wanted to make about website.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
It doesn't matter. We'll do it another time.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
Yeah, so I'm thinking we should wrap up, because I believe you have to go and it's almost bedtime for me, and do the other half next conversation.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Let's do it.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
Let's post this on YouTube in the meantime.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Yep, always a pleasure, Arnaud. Thank you so much, mate. We started about websites. We got derailed about two minutes in and started talking about the industry. Perfect, we should just chop out the bit about websites at the beginning and we'll be good to go. Thanks, Arnaud.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR):
I think those are the best conversations. You start somewhere and you end up somewhere unexpected.
Dave Sharp (Office D. Sharp):
Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Thanks, mate.